Knygatin, it’s interesting that you mention genetics as possibly influencing our taste in art. I’d like to hear more about your thinking, as I have always regarded culture as exactly that: culture. Did you know that the finest performers of Western classical music have been coming from Asia for many years now?

Social background -- absolutely. I grew up in a household where books and reading were, well... normal. They were not idealised or put on a pedestal, but my parents were (and are) always in the middle of some book, and we were taken to the library or bookshop often, and my mother bought me quite a few books when I was a kid. That certainly lowered the threshold for getting into some serious reading later on. Interestingly (?), one of my brothers has remained an avid reader, while the other one hasn’t read a book since high school. So that may be genetics. (The non-reader happens to be the smartest of the three of us -- go figure.)

I’m not a fan of Argento. There’s no denying that some of his set pieces are very effective and original, and I love that Goblin music, but the incoherence of his movies annoys me. (Of course, one man’s incoherence is another man’s “dream logic”...) The one movie of his that I keep returning to -- largely for nostalgic reasons -- is The Beyond, which always fills me with a sense of promise at the start, and always disappoints, despite my having seen it many times.

Bava’s movies are among the best-looking ones I’ve ever seen, but also among the dullest. They make for good eye-candy to play on a big screen at a party, but that’s about it IMHO.

I am not well-versed in Truffaut, having only seen The 400 Blows and The Wild Child, both of which I enjoyed.

Your unicorn movie does not ring a bell, regrettably.

Avoosl, yes I think genetics is important, both racial and individual. It is our cultural heritage on several levels, and affects our outlook and perspective. We can inherit certain characteristics and personality traits from one or the other of our parents, or from our grandparents, great-grandparents, and so on. Some attributes may rest latent for generations, before resurfacing. Same with certain diseases, unfortunately. That is why siblings, while sharing much from both of their parents, may also be markedly different from each other in some aspects. But also, since the personality is complex and blends in its totality, it can be difficult to clearly define and sort out the individual aspects. Siblings may also share aspects not immediately noticeable, because these aspects are utilized in different ways and areas.

Some reviews I have read of Asian musicians, especially the Chinese, playing European classical music, is that they may be extremely technically proficient at doing it, but lack the soul. In other words, they are very good at imitating. I find it regrettable that they usurp Western culture instead of embracing their own rich heritage.

An interesting philosophical and sociological thread. I'd like to join in, below:

Knygatin Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Avoosl, yes I think genetics is important, both
> racial and individual. It is our cultural heritage
> on several levels, and affects our outlook and
> perspective. We can inherit certain
> characteristics and personality traits from one or
> the other of our parents, or from our
> grandparents, great-grandparents, and so on. Some
> attributes may rest latent for generations, before
> resurfacing. Same with certain diseases,
> unfortunately. That is why siblings, while sharing
> much from both of their parents, may also be
> markedly different from each other in some
> aspects. But also, since the personality is
> complex and blends in its totality, it can be
> difficult to clearly define and sort out the
> individual aspects. Siblings may also share
> aspects not immediately noticeable, because these
> aspects are utilized in different ways and areas.

Here's where I am now as regards culture/genetics, or more bluntly, culture/race.

I think that the largest part, by far, of those aspects we may object to in others is almost always personal behavior, and personal behavior is shaped by what passes for culture among various social groups.

So I'm saying this: race, as loosely defined as certain clusters of phenotypes shared widely among groups of differing geographical origins, certainly exists, and to me it's laughable--even insulting--to claim otherwise. Every argument against the recognition of "race" I've ever seen or read, from mere rabble rousers to "socially responsible" academics, is nothing more than an attempt to deny what is clearly before your own eyes--popularly labeled "race"--and has been similarly shared by all humans groups throughout all time.

They *all* notice race, and always have.

That said, I see physical differences between both individuals, and statistically between racial groups. And here's the most important part: for day-to-day interactions, these amount to very little--truly trivial--so long as large parts of a culture are shared, or if of separate cultures to which these racially diverse individuals belong, the cultures share the same values and at roughly the same priorities.

So yep there may be statistical differences in what portion of a racial group possesses the ability to detect perfect pitch, which ones withstand certain diseases better, which can complete a measured distance the fastest, and which can manipulate abstract concepts better. But face it: day-to-day this seldom comes into play, and if it does, there's also the significant chance that an individual from one group, G-1, performs measurably better on task X than does an individual from G-2--a group that *statistically* performs task X at a higher level than G-1.

So cutting to the chase: who cares about race? It's the color of your car, for all intents and purposes.

But culture, however...

If culture A has a deeply held tenet that child sacrifice is of the greatest importance, while culture B holds equally strongly that children are a gift from the divine and are to be treated appropriately, there'll be conflict. This conflict will have nothing to do with the "race" of the groups, but it will be over their esteemed values, and hence behaviors.

Groups tend to evolve in similar environments, which are often isolated, and these varied environments enforce physical adaptations on the groups, which over time is the basis for what are noted as racial differences. The longer these groups remain in relative isolation, the greater the potential for physical divergence from other, distant groups.

But each of these groups in isolation develop a code of behaviors and shared values, and this is "culture". Because it was developed in a relatively isolated group that had therefore evolved physical differences known as "race", the culture will *appear* to be congruent with race, but it is not. The connection is circumstantial, not causal.

And while the race of an individual is immutable, his/her culture is not. This can be affected at birth by foster placement into a household of a different culture (of the same or different race), or it can be voluntarily emulated by the individual, to a degree.

Hence "francophiles" and Eminem...go figger, huh? :^)

So really, to me, race means very little while culture means everything. And race remains, but culture is fluid, to a degree.

There. Now I'm glad that's all cleared up, aren't you? ;^)

>
>
> Some reviews I have read of Asian musicians,
> especially the Chinese, playing European classical
> music, is that they may be extremely technically
> proficient at doing it, but lack the soul. In
> other words, they are very good at imitating. I
> find it regrettable that they usurp Western
> culture instead of embracing their own rich
> heritage.

I'm not in the position to judge, and very few are, in my opinion--and fewer still will *honestly* judge. Nor do I deem it wise to listen to what they think if I, myself, cannot detect the difference when listening to the same piece, even with their input on what to note.

--Sawfish

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"The food at the new restaurant is awful, but at least the portions are large."
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 16 May 21 | 10:02AM by Sawfish.

Avoosl Wuthoqquan Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
>
> I’m not a fan of Argento. There’s no denying
> that some of his set pieces are very effective and
> original, and I love that Goblin music, but the
> incoherence of his movies annoys me. (Of course,
> one man’s incoherence is another man’s
> “dream logic”...) The one movie of his that I
> keep returning to -- largely for nostalgic reasons
> -- is The Beyond, which always fills me with a
> sense of promise at the start, and always
> disappoints, despite my having seen it many
> times.
>

I have not seen The Beyond. It seems to have been made by Lucio Fulci, another Italian director. It has a connection to Clark Ashton Smith, because it features the Book of Eibon.

I may have seen one film, at tops two, by Fellini, at a film club in my upper teens. Then I gave up.

But I did watch Satyricon a couple of days ago, mainly for study purpose. I can't say I like it. The hysteria, the irrational facial expressions, and lack of physical anchoring in the actors' movements. It chafes my senses. Extremely decadent and perverse, in more ways than one (with the demise of Rome, it figures. Still, Fellini, the liberal, really seems to like it.). I think this is one major reason why he is so praised by the critical establishment. I find Fellini to be anti-intellectual ─ passionate, and political, but led by feelings and impulses, instead of real analysis.

It is a visual feast, I'll admit to enjoying some of it from that aspect. And has some fine stage choreography. (The androgynous child was brilliantly conceived in all its decadence, ... and appropriately ill.) I agree that there are (purely coincidental) visual similarities to Jack Vance, in the colorful clothing and some of the bizarre characters. And the cripples remind me of Vance's semi-human creatures.

Richard Corben, on the other hand, was a fan of Fellini, and he has obviously taken a lot of inspiration from Satyricon. The film is very "Corbenesque". I am a fan of Corben (especially his early work from the 70s, before too many economic issues came into consideration). I also like Ingmar Bergman very much, but I don't imagine Corben did particularly, although he did borrow from The Seventh Seal. Strange lack of correlation, in crosswise inconsistency of taste.

I also hear, near the ending of Satyricon, that The Residents were inspired by some of the music for their record Eskimo.

K, do I understand that you think Fellini is political?

His early stuff is humanistic in the same sense that Steinbeck is humanistic--concerned with the human condition. Now I'll agree that the politically progressive movement is also concerned--although I'd call it *obsessed* with the human condition, but being aware of it and examining is one thing (like in La Strada), and then seeking to make prescriptive changes to society to "correct" what the observers views as shortcomings is another.

So I see Fellini as observing the human condition and leaving it at that in his earlier stuff, but from 8 1/2 onward, he not only observes, but makes fun of it.

And boy, oh boy. He lacks decorum. Does he ever...

I see no prescriptions for improvement, however, as I would expect in a film with an overt political statement, like with Gilliam's Brazil.

--Sawfish

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"The food at the new restaurant is awful, but at least the portions are large."
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Knygatin Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I have not seen The Beyond. It seems to have been
> made by Lucio Fulci, another Italian director.

Thank you for the correction; I misremembered.

> It
> has a connection to Clark Ashton Smith, because it
> features the Book of Eibon.

Very true. My nostalgia for it springs partially from playing what was then called a “text adventure” (nowadays we’d call it interactive fiction) inspired by the movie on my Commodore 64 as a boy. At one point in the game you find the Book of Eibon and the name just lodged itself in my mind forever.

Many years later, I discovered CAS because a quotation from ‘The Abominations of Yondo’ is used in the computer game NetHack. As I’ve said before: culture finds the strangest vectors to infect us. I actually have an edition of Dante’s Inferno that was published as a tie-in with a video game -- full-colour screenshots included with the Longfellow translation and its many excellent notes. The contrast is hilarious, and yet... I can imagine some fourteen-year-old stumbling upon it because of the video game, getting his first pleasurable taste of capital-L literature and maybe, just maybe, going looking for more.

Anyway, fast-forward another decade or so and a student of mine mentions “this obscure writer he really likes”. I intuitively (!) sense that he means CAS. (It’s always nice to meet young people who read adventurously.) A little later in the conversation, I ask him if “this guy Jack Vance” is any good. He replies in the affirmative, and -- BLAMMO! -- I’ve found myself a new favourite writer.

Vance has always been unusually popular in the Netherlands, incidentally. I’m not sure if the same applies to CAS, but the first story of his that I ever read was included in a vast Dutch-language horror anthology compiled by the redoubtable Erik Lankester which for some reason my parents had on their shelf (my father hating the horror genre because it scares him too much, my mother finding it risible nonsense). The story was ‘The Death of Ilalotha’, and even at the age of eleven or so I found its undercurrent of necrophilia profoundly disturbing.

> I find Fellini to be
> anti-intellectual - passionate, and political,
> but led by feelings and impulses, instead of real
> analysis.

I’m not sure about political -- I’ve never looked at his movies through that lens, but other than that I completely agree. It is telling to me that, when directing, he would actually act out the actors’ parts for them. Every character you see is basically him. Or a part of him. Or an aspect. Take your pick.

> I also hear, near the ending of Satyricon, that
> The Residents were inspired by some of the music
> for their record Eskimo.

That is fascinating to me. The Residents are my favourite band (if you can call them that). Do you have any more info on that?

Sawfish Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I see no prescriptions for improvement, however,
> as I would expect in a film with an overt
> political statement, like with Gilliam's Brazil.

And now my favourite film gets a mention. This place is spooky sometimes...

It’s funny that the handful of us who have been doing so much conversing here lately have such different takes on life, the universe and everything, yet we seem to gravitate to the same books, movies and music. And creamed spinach -- yum!

Avoosl Wuthoqquan Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Knygatin Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > I have not seen The Beyond. It seems to have
> been
> > made by Lucio Fulci, another Italian director.
>
> Thank you for the correction; I misremembered.
>
> > It
> > has a connection to Clark Ashton Smith, because
> it
> > features the Book of Eibon.
>
> Very true. My nostalgia for it springs partially
> from playing what was then called a “text
> adventure” (nowadays we’d call it interactive
> fiction) inspired by the movie on my Commodore 64
> as a boy. At one point in the game you find the
> Book of Eibon and the name just lodged itself in
> my mind forever.
>
> Many years later, I discovered CAS because a
> quotation from ‘The Abominations of Yondo’ is
> used in the computer game NetHack. As I’ve said
> before: culture finds the strangest vectors to
> infect us. I actually have an edition of Dante’s
> Inferno that was published as a tie-in with a
> video game -- full-colour screenshots included
> with the Longfellow translation and its many
> excellent notes. The contrast is hilarious, and
> yet... I can imagine some fourteen-year-old
> stumbling upon it because of the video game,
> getting his first pleasurable taste of capital-L
> literature and maybe, just maybe, going looking
> for more.
>
> Anyway, fast-forward another decade or so and a
> student of mine mentions “this obscure writer he
> really likes”. I intuitively (!) sense that he
> means CAS. (It’s always nice to meet young
> people who read adventurously.) A little later in
> the conversation, I ask him if “this guy Jack
> Vance” is any good. He replies in the
> affirmative, and -- BLAMMO! -- I’ve found myself
> a new favourite writer.
>
> Vance has always been unusually popular in the
> Netherlands, incidentally. I’m not sure if the
> same applies to CAS, but the first story of his
> that I ever read was included in a vast
> Dutch-language horror anthology compiled by the
> redoubtable Erik Lankester which for some reason
> my parents had on their shelf (my father hating
> the horror genre because it scares him too much,
> my mother finding it risible nonsense). The story
> was ‘The Death of Ilalotha’, and even at the
> age of eleven or so I found its undercurrent of
> necrophilia profoundly disturbing.
>
> > I find Fellini to be
> > anti-intellectual - passionate, and political,
> > but led by feelings and impulses, instead of
> real
> > analysis.
>
> I’m not sure about political -- I’ve never
> looked at his movies through that lens, but other
> than that I completely agree. It is telling to me
> that, when directing, he would actually act out
> the actors’ parts for them. Every character you
> see is basically him. Or a part of him. Or an
> aspect. Take your pick.
>
> > I also hear, near the ending of Satyricon, that
> > The Residents were inspired by some of the
> music
> > for their record Eskimo.
>
> That is fascinating to me. The Residents are my
> favourite band (if you can call them that). Do you
> have any more info on that?
>
> Sawfish Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > I see no prescriptions for improvement,
> however,
> > as I would expect in a film with an overt
> > political statement, like with Gilliam's
> Brazil.
>
> And now my favourite film gets a mention. This
> place is spooky sometimes...
>
> It’s funny that the handful of us who have been
> doing so much conversing here lately have such
> different takes on life, the universe and
> everything, yet we seem to gravitate to the same
> books, movies and music. And creamed spinach --
> yum!

Hah!

--Sawfish

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"The food at the new restaurant is awful, but at least the portions are large."
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Avoosl Wuthoqquan Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Knygatin Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > I also hear, near the ending of Satyricon, that
> > The Residents were inspired by some of the music
> > for their record Eskimo.
>
> That is fascinating to me. The Residents are my
> favourite band (if you can call them that). Do you
> have any more info on that?
>

It begins at about 1:42:40.



> Sawfish Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> I see no prescriptions for [political] improvement, ...

Of course there are no such. Liberals and left wingers never have any well considered solutions. They only want to tear down what is good and natural and stable order, have free "humanism", social anarchy, and live out their lusts.

Sawfish Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> But face it: day-to-day this seldom comes into play,
> and if it does, there's also the significant
> chance that an individual from one group, G-1,
> performs measurably better on task X than does an
> individual from G-2--a group that *statistically*
> performs task X at a higher level than G-1.
>
> So cutting to the chase: who cares about race?
> It's the color of your car, for all intents and
> purposes.
>
> So really, to me, race means very little while
> culture means everything.
>
> There. Now I'm glad that's all cleared up, aren't
> you? ;^)
>
>

Whew! You have really tied yourself up into a tight PC knot, even attempting to parry for "the obvious that everyone sees", haven't you? :) But whatever makes you happy ...

However, my dear young man, I hate to be the one to bring the news to you, but you are out bicycling completely BACKWARDS, sitting on the handle and holding onto the seat, I am afraid.

Racial identity is far deeper and stronger than casually applied culture. Genetic heritage is more profound than superficial temporary culture. Race and original culture are intimately connected, both have developed through evolution in close relation to specific geography, climate, geological and biological conditions.

And racial phenotype is deeper than skin color, it applies through the whole anatomy, even the function of the brain. Individual exceptions from this does not make up for or exclude the general traits.

It's not a problem when, sporadically, individuals from different cultural/racial groups meet and choose to engage. It can happen to anyone. It is their own lives, their choice, and their responsibility. But it becomes a MAJOR PROBLEM when it is intentionally implemented on large scale (especially when the races/cultures are strongly divergent from each other), like in Europe today, where the Europeans, especially the North Europeans, are being replaced by Africans and Arabs (primarily Muslims) through politically dictated mass-immigration, motivated by an anti-white agenda. These people will take over Europe by sheer numbers flooding in, through their own high birth-rates, and by propaganda-induced racial mixing. A clashing and painful path of transformation, the downfall of one society replaced by another. Perhaps in the end they will have some kind of functional society of their own going (in all likelihood they will be slaves under the global ruling elite), but it will definitely NOT be the high European culture as we know it. The Men of a healthy people would strongly oppose this wholesale replacement of their own society/traditions/values/culture/race. The passive acceptance of it is a sign of (induced) decadence, being thoroughly taken in.

Avoosl Wuthoqquan Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> The Residents are my
> favourite band ...
>

I have come to a stage where I must also say the same. Neil Young used to be my favorite rock star. I first listened to The Residents in 1979 or 1980, and did it partly out of youthful rebellion because they were so weird. But after a few years I rejected them, stopped listening, thinking it was socially harmful. It took another 20 years before I resumed listening to them again. This music, for me, has earlier not been about pleasant harmonies, like say the melodies of John Denver; but more comparable to the pleasure of scratching an itch, or picking on the scab of a half-healed wound. They have even been accused of earlier being commies, but then they turned into avid businessmen. Normally I am not very interested in avant garde in art, but with The Residents it is the creativity and rich imagination that attracts me. And getting to know more about the men behind the band, my sympathies have grown, consequently the weirdness has retracted into the background and I hear overall simply great music.

Knygatin Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Sawfish Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > But face it: day-to-day this seldom comes into
> play,
> > and if it does, there's also the significant
> > chance that an individual from one group, G-1,
> > performs measurably better on task X than does
> an
> > individual from G-2--a group that
> *statistically*
> > performs task X at a higher level than G-1.
> >
> > So cutting to the chase: who cares about race?
> > It's the color of your car, for all intents and
> > purposes.
> >
> > So really, to me, race means very little while
> > culture means everything.
> >
> > There. Now I'm glad that's all cleared up,
> aren't
> > you? ;^)
> >
> >
>
> Whew! You have really tied yourself up into a
> tight PC knot, even attempting to parry for "the
> obvious that everyone sees", haven't you? :) But
> whatever makes you happy ...

K, you're the very first person who has ever identified me as either progressive or PC.

The first and only.

Now pause for a moment to consider the implications of that.

>
> However, my dear young man, I hate to be the one
> to bring the news to you, but you are out
> bicycling completely BACKWARDS, sitting on the
> handle and holding onto the seat, I am afraid.
>
> Racial identity is far deeper and stronger than
> casually applied culture. Genetic heritage is more
> profound than superficial temporary culture. Race
> and original culture are intimately connected,
> both have developed through evolution in close
> relation to specific geography, climate,
> geological and biological conditions.

These are all assertions, and as such are of no more value that my stated positions, K.

Please don't mistake your assertions for anything that has been in some way proved conclusively.

>
> And racial phenotype is deeper than skin color, it
> applies through the whole anatomy, even the
> function of the brain.

No one ever claimed otherwise, so far as I know.


> Individual exceptions from
> this does not make up for or exclude the general
> traits.

It's accurate to state that certain races statistically differ from each other in measurable ways, yes. I doubt anyone denies this, and if they did, I'd consider them dishonest, ill-informed, or both.

>
> It's not a problem when, sporadically, individuals
> from different cultural/racial groups meet and
> choose to engage. It can happen to anyone. It is
> their own lives, their choice, and their
> responsibility.

Agreed.

> But it becomes a MAJOR PROBLEM
> when it is intentionally implemented on large
> scale (especially when the races/cultures are
> strongly divergent from each other), like in
> Europe today, where the Europeans, especially the
> North Europeans, are being replaced by Africans
> and Arabs (primarily Muslims) through politically
> dictated mass-immigration, motivated by an
> anti-white agenda.

The nut of what you're saying is that involuntary and externally forced associations between two (or more) groups with irreconcilable value systems are disruptive and mutually unacceptable, and this is conforms with my own observations. But the most profound differences seem to be cultural differences rather the biological ones.

> These people will take over
> Europe by sheer numbers flooding in, through their
> own high birth-rates, and by propaganda-induced
> racial mixing. A clashing and painful path of
> transformation, the downfall of one society
> replaced by another. Perhaps in the end they will
> have some kind of functional society of their own
> going (in all likelihood they will be slaves under
> the global ruling elite), but it will definitely
> NOT be the high European culture as we know it.
> The Men of a healthy people would strongly oppose
> this wholesale replacement of their own
> society/traditions/values/culture/race. The
> passive acceptance of it is a sign of (induced)
> decadence, being thoroughly taken in.

It could happen.

And monkeys could come flying out of the Queen of England's derriere, too.

In short, K., I wouldn't bet on either: it's too early to tell for sure.

I think what you're doing is pretty much what I'm doing: basing your default positions on race/culture on your own not inconsiderable interactions with individuals of different races and cultures, and perhaps cross-referencing your experiences with statistical information.

Perhaps you've had college room-mates of differing races/ethnicities/religions, as I have, or maybe you worked for managers of different race and cultures, maybe working alongside peers of different backgrounds, extensively, as happens in software development. It may be that you've socialized frequently and regularly with other races/cultures and perhaps dated such individuals.

Maybe your experiences were different and not as generally positive as mine. Certainly, I'd hate to think you've had few--or even no--such personal experiences on which to base your opinions, relying instead on what you see on TV and read online.

Now for a quick litmus test, K. I've read The Bell Curve in its entirety once, and have referenced back thru it multiple times. You seem to think that you can somehow read my mind--knowing in advance what my positions are and why. That said, tell me what my opinion of the Bell Curve is, and why you suppose I hold them.

I eagerly await your response.

--Sawfish

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"The food at the new restaurant is awful, but at least the portions are large."
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Knygatin Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Avoosl Wuthoqquan Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > The Residents are my
> > favourite band ...
> >
>
> I have come to a stage where I must also say the
> same. Neil Young used to be my favorite rock star.
> I first listened to The Residents in 1979 or 1980,
> and did it partly out of youthful rebellion
> because they were so weird. But after a few years
> I rejected them, stopped listening, thinking it
> was socially harmful. It took another 20 years
> before I resumed listening to them again. This
> music, for me, has earlier not been about pleasant
> harmonies, like say the melodies of John Denver;
> but more comparable to the pleasure of scratching
> an itch, or picking on the scab of a half-healed
> wound. They have even been accused of earlier
> being commies, but then they turned into avid
> businessmen. Normally I am not very interested in
> avant garde in art, but with The Residents it is
> the creativity and rich imagination that attracts
> me. And getting to know more about the men behind
> the band, my sympathies have grown, consequently
> the weirdness has retracted into the background
> and I hear overall simply great music.

Interesting description of their artistic apotheosis, as you have evolved to judge their work.

At some point I'll have ti give them another try. There are some artists who, by the very nature of their work, seem to evoke multiple responses in their "audience", and these responsess may be more commonly associated with a completely different *form*: e.g., Goya's Disasters of War evoke a feeling that one seldom, if ever, encounters in music, and yet it's possible for some very unconventional artists maybe sample it in their work. I have no examples of such, but it seems possible, at least.

So such artists not only defy genre labeling, but perhaps go further--they defy the expectations of the medium in which they create.

I'll end this post by briefly sharing a unique reaction to a work of sculpture I saw on display in the LA Museum of Art maybe 40 years ago.

There was a major exhibit, which is why we went, and after viewing it we walked past some other works unassociated with the theme of the exhibit.

We walked past a life-sized bronze sculpture of a nude woman. It was done by a German sculptor in the 1920s and after looking at it for a while, you could sense without doubt that the model had been the sculptor's lover. And boy, oh boy, it became increasingly evident that he was deeply, deeply in love with her.

It was a standing pose, relaxed, and yet modest. Her arms were semi relaxed and yet modestly protective of her nakeness. If life-size, she was a small, slim, delicately built young woman maybe 20 years old. There was a profound vulnerability and innocence and *sweetness* that became increasing clear as you viewed the sculpture.

I'm pretty far removed from sentimentality, but I was profoundly moved to happiness as I grasped the depth of their relationship.

After 40 years, I remember it--and *feel* it--still.

--Sawfish

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"The food at the new restaurant is awful, but at least the portions are large."
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 28 May 21 | 11:17AM by Sawfish.

Sawfish Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> You seem to think that you can somehow read my mind--knowing in
> advance what my positions are and why.
>

That I do not. I merely jovially commented on and opposed your statement about race being insignificant, which I find rash and typical for media/system induced pc. After that I continued with my own reflection.

Another symptom that racial identity is deeper than casually applied culture, is that Africans and Europeans still live segregated in the US, even after 200 years. And in South Africa, and in Europe.

May I ask, do you actively socialize with blacks (apart from at work or in school, where you must for obvious reasons adapt somewhat), and invite them into your home as close friends? In your spare time? And not doing it to be "good", but because you truly enjoy it? And I don't mean some mulatto chum either, but a truly black stemming from the deepest Congo, or Somalia, with throaty or chattering voices, with a phenotype that markedly differs from your own. If you do, then by all means, I find you somewhat remarkable. Most Americans of European origin don't do that. Because racial identity is very strong; we want to recognize something of ourselves in those we socialize closely with; it is biologically natural. It is a combination of race and deep culture, because these go hand in hand, are blended.

> It could happen. And monkeys could come flying out of the Queen of England's derriere, too. In short, K., I
> wouldn't bet on either: it's too early to tell for sure.

No, it is not! You can see it in the changing demography. WHO has calculated that Africa will double or even triple its population within the next few decades, while white Europeans are decreasing (again, attained through effective anti-white propaganda induction and domestic sanctions). The corrupt politicians bark out that Europe will not "survive", unless we have more mass-immigration from Africa. Instead of immigration the politicians could have done like they do in Hungary, support its own people, to politically support the family and bearing children. But they refuse. (Hungary is a healthy homogenous country, with sensible East Europeans. I have been there, it is clean and tidy, people are cheerful and sociable and proud, and you can safely go out there even at night.) The West Europeans are quickly and efficiently being replaced by Africans and Arabs, and will be a minority within a few decades (they already are in some cities), if this is allowed to continue. Are we to just sit passive, ... and hope for the best?!! The process is actually accelerating through political dictates. Numerous laws, media bias, and advertising, repress the Europeans and their culture, and favor the "newly arrived". At the core of this is an anti-white agenda and increased implementation of a purely materialistic, senseless commercial consumer's culture. Rapes and other violent crimes committed against the Europeans are not properly sentenced, but are being excused by representative politicians, by saying that "they do it because they are discriminated by white man", or "well, they don't understand our laws, and therefore cannot be judged", or putting the blame on the rape victims for dressing "invitingly" instead of covering their bodies, or men dressing "too well", thus inviting robbery. So the perpetrators continue to walk the streets, enjoying freedom and consuming the assets of European tax payers. As soon as they set foot in a European country, they are falsely titled natives of that country, and by law may not be called anything else, to facilitate enforced mixing.

The system even go so far as to lowering school requirements to adapt to immigrants' level, overturning and dissolving basic knowledge and teaching, replacing it with free "discussions" and flexible "anything goes" interpretations, where everyone is right and no one is wrong (except those preferring tradition); letting students decide on their own spelling, distorting the basics of science and biology (by an unpleasant stew of inane decadence), and even saying that 2 + 2 is not necessarily 4 because it has only been "the white man's privilege" to state such. It is the destruction of a civilization.

And even if the Africans and Arabs should succeed in making something of their own in Europe (more likely will be kept doing menial service for the elite), to satisfy their needs when the last supporting Europeans are gone (through 'white flight', low birth rates, racially mixed up, and, when in minority, by final persecution), this is still an invasion and occupation. It is War, a masked war, not executed with swords and guns, but with baby carriages. There is devilish deception at the core of it, even some pretended nationalism to mislead the disgruntled. I will never be convinced by platitude phrases like "it's only color" and "everyone's equal rights", to freely accept this native replacement, which they call "humanism" to trick people into accepting it (the persistent propaganda of passive acceptance has been extremely effective), but which has nothing to do with ethics. By extinguishing intelligent, stable, and successfully independent cultural groups, robbing their national savings and draining their welfare buffer, and herding the increasingly mixed people into shallow materialistic consumption culture, they will be easier to control by the global rulers, while also increasing the profits of the elite bankers, who are one and the same. Actually, by now the top bankers already control the majority of the global assets through their economic debt system, and are gradually moving over from increasing mass consumption to drastically reducing the World population.

Knygatin Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Sawfish Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > You seem to think that you can somehow read my
> mind--knowing in
> > advance what my positions are and why.
> >
>
> That I do not. I merely jovially commented on and
> opposed your statement about race being
> insignificant, which I find rash and typical for
> media/system induced pc. After that I continued
> with my own reflection.
>
> Another symptom that racial identity is deeper
> than casually applied culture, is that Africans
> and Europeans still live segregated in the US,
> even after 200 years. And in South Africa, and in
> Europe.
>
> May I ask, do you actively socialize with blacks
> (apart from at work or in school, where you must
> for obvious reasons adapt somewhat), and invite
> them into your home as close friends? In your
> spare time? And not doing it to be "good",

For chrissake, K. I'm not "good", never have been except for a brief period in college.

I'm really disappointed that you'd even have to ask.

> but
> because you truly enjoy it? And I don't mean some
> mulatto chum either, but a truly black stemming
> from the deepest Congo, or Somalia, with throaty
> or chattering voices, with a phenotype that
> markedly differs from your own.

No, and we agree on this: by default, phenotypes (races) tend to immediately identify with others of their group. At least until they have established contact enough to find out if they share any values.

This all seems normal and natural.

But what I gradually found was that I have more in common with the Chinese, Indian, Iranian doctors and engineers who were the parents of my daughter's school friends than I do with people who watch Duck Dynasty or NASCAR.

...or any popular Spanish language TV shows, or people who like to regularly watch Beyonce and listen to rap.

..or American Idol, or other such personally demeaning exhibitions.

So this is evidence, to me, that this where cultural values provide a sufficient personal interface that racial differences are secondary.

This is why I don't go to biker bars or NBA games: one scares me, the other bores me.

As regards such as voice qualities, these, to a very large degree, are culturally dictated as well. Listen to two Japanese business people converse, where one has greater status than the other.

I've been with black friends/acquaintances who basically can turn on (or off) diction characteristics at will.

But it's basically true that I have few close black friends, and it's also true that I socialize mostly with Asian people, either by ancestry or directly from China. Korea, or Singapore/Malaysia.

I no longer have any close friend--they either died or I let contact dry up. I'm happy as is.

Nor have I ever cared if I had zero "types" of friends. I'm not equitable socially: I like who I like, for whatever reasons.


> If you do, then by
> all means, I find you somewhat remarkable. Most
> Americans of European origin don't do that.

Agreed.

And here's a HUGE revelation: when I got involved with my current wife and began to socialize A LOT with many Asian folk, I saw demonstrated an unashamed recognition of, and commentary on, racial differences. I was frankly asked questions that no Caucasian in the US would be comfortable asking someone of another race, and they meant nothing by it: to them it seemed like a legitimate conversation opener.

I saw, or detected, this again and again in my Asian acquaintances, and realized that aside from the US and western Europe, race was readily recognized, it was assumed to be associated with differences, and at that point you either establish contact or not, depending on the circumstances.

Now, additionally if these people of varied races shared some deeply held social/behavioral values, it could be quite workable. Doesn't mean you'll be best friends, but it can mean a decent social/business relationship with a fair amount of mutual respect, rather than suspicion and mistrust.

I saw this again, and again, and again, and...

> Because racial identity is very strong; we want to
> recognize something of ourselves in those we
> socialize closely with; it is biologically
> natural. It is a combination of race and deep
> culture,

I agree with all but culture. Maybe "deep culture" to you means something like an instant and insistent preference for red-hair women. I probably would not consider this as a part of culture, but perhaps you would. I'd view it as a possible evolutionarily dictated biological imperative.

>
because these go hand in hand, are
> blended.

I don't deny that race can infuse preferences, but that these can be mitigated by what *I* call culture: and adherence to established norms and tastes for a given group of whatever race.

Here's a fair example of where I think that race may indeed preclude complete socio-cultural assimilation: Native Americans. They may have been isolated in a non-sophisticated material culture for so long that many/most of them do not possess the underlying biological or psychological (to the degree that it's physically based) underpinnings to adapt to the current industrial cultures.

Ditto for Australian aborigines: the gap in isolation my be too great.

>
> > It could happen. And monkeys could come flying
> out of the Queen of England's derriere, too. In
> short, K., I
> > wouldn't bet on either: it's too early to tell
> for sure.
>
> No, it is not! You can see it in the changing
> demography. WHO has calculated that Africa will
> double or even triple its population within the
> next few decades, while white Europeans are
> decreasing (again, attained through effective
> anti-white propaganda induction and domestic
> sanctions). The corrupt politicians bark out that
> Europe will not "survive", unless we have more
> mass-immigration from Africa. Instead of
> immigration the politicians could have done like
> they do in Hungary, support its own people, to
> politically support the family and bearing
> children. But they refuse. (Hungary is a healthy
> homogenous country, with sensible East Europeans.
> I have been there, it is clean and tidy, people
> are cheerful and sociable and proud, and you can
> safely go out there even at night.) The West
> Europeans are quickly and efficiently being
> replaced by Africans and Arabs, and will be a
> minority within a few decades (they already are in
> some cities), if this is allowed to continue. Are
> we to just sit passive, ... and hope for the
> best?!! The process is actually accelerating
> through political dictates. Numerous laws, media
> bias, and advertising, repress the Europeans and
> their culture, and favor the "newly arrived". At
> the core of this is an anti-white agenda and
> increased implementation of a purely
> materialistic, senseless commercial consumer's
> culture. Rapes and other violent crimes committed
> against the Europeans are not properly sentenced,
> but are being excused by representative
> politicians, by saying that "they do it because
> they are discriminated by white man", or "well,
> they don't understand our laws, and therefore
> cannot be judged", or putting the blame on the
> rape victims for dressing "invitingly" instead of
> covering their bodies, or men dressing "too well",
> thus inviting robbery. So the perpetrators
> continue to walk the streets, enjoying freedom and
> consuming the assets of European tax payers. As
> soon as they set foot in a European country, they
> are falsely titled natives of that country, and by
> law may not be called anything else, to facilitate
> enforced mixing.

I think that it could happen that way, but you could always move to Hungary, because if it's as you say, you'll have next to zero chance to alter it. I mean, this to me makes sense because you'd have actual agency, whereas being a part of a whining, hopeless mass of embittered and emasculated drones will only cause you to lose respect.

It's not a question of what's right or wrong, but what's possible and likely. You've got only one life (as near as I can tell) and you can spend it as Don Quixote, or his side-kick Sancho Panza.

I realized this long ago and am in fact a very well-heeled Sancho Panza, with enough assets to buy my way into virtually any place I want.

...and I may yet do this, the point being that I'm able precisely because I did not spend the last 40 years titling impotently at windmills, all the while making myself a laughing stock.

>
> The system even go so far as to lowering school
> requirements to adapt to immigrants' level,
> overturning and dissolving basic knowledge and
> teaching, replacing it with free "discussions" and
> flexible "anything goes" interpretations, where
> everyone is right and no one is wrong (except
> those preferring tradition); letting students
> decide on their own spelling, distorting the
> basics of science and biology (by an unpleasant
> stew of inane decadence), and even saying that 2 +
> 2 is not necessarily 4 because it has only been
> "the white man's privilege" to state such. It is
> the destruction of a civilization.
>
> And even if the Africans and Arabs should succeed
> in making something of their own in Europe (more
> likely will be kept doing menial service for the
> elite), to satisfy their needs when the last
> supporting Europeans are gone (through 'white
> flight', low birth rates, racially mixed up, and,
> when in minority, by final persecution), this is
> still an invasion and occupation. It is War, a
> masked war, not executed with swords and guns, but
> with baby carriages. There is devilish deception
> at the core of it, even some pretended nationalism
> to mislead the disgruntled. I will never be
> convinced by platitude phrases like "it's only
> color" and "everyone's equal rights", to freely
> accept this native replacement, which they call
> "humanism" to trick people into accepting it (the
> persistent propaganda of passive acceptance has
> been extremely effective), but which has nothing
> to do with ethics. By extinguishing intelligent,
> stable, and successfully independent cultural
> groups, robbing their national savings and
> draining their welfare buffer, and herding the
> increasingly mixed people into shallow
> materialistic consumption culture, they will be
> easier to control by the global rulers, while also
> increasing the profits of the elite bankers, who
> are one and the same. Actually, by now the top
> bankers already control the majority of the global
> assets through their economic debt system, and are
> gradually moving over from increasing mass
> consumption to drastically reducing the World
> population.

I think that these points you raise have levels of validity, but all this is to me is a map of the terrain: now I figure how best to get me and mine to the best place on the map I've found, in a stable fashion, and by God, I'm pretty good at it because I don't allow myself to get distracted and diverted by someone else's talking points.

I Look at the map, and don't deny what I see. If I judge it more effective to try to stem the tide, I'd do it, but if not, I'd ride the crest to the best of my abilities.

This has always worked for me better than anything else.

--Sawfish

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"The food at the new restaurant is awful, but at least the portions are large."
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Perhaps this might only prove a few points listed above, but as one who has both white and Japanese ancestry, I never felt much concern for a fellow's skin color, facial structure, cultural background, etc. I lived in California my entire life, and the urban areas are filled with all kinds of people. I detest urbanization, mind you, but I got along with anyone as long as they weren't jackasses. I've known several friends of different origins, and I was comfortable talking to all of them and meeting their families. Perhaps this is because I'm mixed, making me unusual somehow, but I assume most people (and I don't mean SJWs or other cowards who nervously place race upon a pedestal that can never be approached) wouldn't mind the company of someone with a different skin or culture as long as the individuals share something in common. My ex-wife was all-white and she thought I was exotic, but she had no trouble immersing herself in the Asian side of my family.

I'm basically a loner, so I prefer exceptional individuals rather than strictly white or Japanese folk. I've never felt interest in Japan, in fact I find some sides of its culture unsettling and overrated, but I can say the exact same thing about the U. S. I never liked chatting with a loud white neighbor who swears up and down the street, I never felt any enthusiasm for the super bowl, and I always thought my white father was an ignoramus for the qualities he thought were proudly American, like getting into fist fights with random strangers for the sake of honor.

Regarding the phasing out of white people, or any ethnicity, I'm not so worried about that. I don't know whether or not there is any masked war (maybe there is) but I accept that everything has a beginning and an end, even peoples and cultures, in spite of the common desire to preserve everything in life for its own sake. White, black, Mexican, Asian, I'm only interested in rare imaginative individuals who can talk about things beyond what is normal to any race or society, which will naturally change or fade away some day. My neighbors are okay people, and I wish them the very best, but boy would I be bored talking to them for more than a half-hour.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 28 May 21 | 10:18PM by Hespire.